Ill Communication Podcast, Episode 181
Let's get one thing straight. Sales is not sleazy.
I know. A lot of us (women especially) were raised to think selling is pushy, greedy and a little bit gross. And if you're a coach, healer, teacher or any kind of helper, it can feel even worse. Like charging for your gift is somehow wrong.
This week on the podcast, I'm switching things up. Earlier this year, my business friend Sara Torpey had me on her podcast, Uncomplicating Business, to talk about high-ticket sales. Sara is a teacher-turned-business coach who helps healers, teachers and service providers build sustainable, profitable businesses without the hustle. She has a wonderful way of making the complex very, very simple.
And we had a fabulous conversation. I want to emphasize CONVERSATION, because we really went back and forth on sales, selling, marketing and the mindset goop that comes up when we raise our rates and sell our services.
So I'm sharing that conversation with you here, with a fresh intro and outro from me. Grab a notepad. There are a lot of writer-downers.
Sales is an act of service
To me, sales is an exchange of value and an exchange of service.
You're filling a need. You're providing a solution to a problem someone has. That's an act of service, and an act of love.
And when you think of sales that way, it takes the pressure off. All the stuff that feels icky (marketing yourself, building connection, building relationships) is really in service of helping someone solve a problem.
Sara put it perfectly. Sales is the thing that happens before the exchange. It's service before the service.
Helping and getting paid are NOT mutually exclusive
So many healers, teachers and creatives feel like they can't charge for their gift. Or can't charge THAT much.
Here's how I think about it. I deliver a level of my service for free in my marketing, my messaging and my pre-sale activities. Your podcast, your emails and your content can provide free or affordable transformation for people who can't (or don't want to) invest.
But the BIG transformation? That's for the people who are able to pay and work with you directly.
Sara comes from teaching, where you're basically told it should all be free. Her take: everyone is happier, including you, when the exchange of value is balanced.
We all have to make a living. We all have bills to pay. We all have kids with astronomical sports fees or theater camp fees.
There is no shame in charging a decent amount for what you deliver, so you can pay the bills, put food on the table, give back to your community and donate to the causes you love.
And women naturally give back to their communities when we have more agency to do so.
Bargain basement pricing can backfire
Sara sees a lot of clients calculate their prices down to the bare minimum. The least they can charge and still pay the bills.
Guys. We're not trying to lay on the floor.
Bargain basement pricing might be shooting yourself in the foot. People looking for an expert see the lowest rate on the block and think you can't deliver the solution they need.
The right price point tells them, "This person must be able to deliver a transformation."
Aim for the lowest common denominator and you'll sacrifice sales with the ideal clients who actually WANT to work with you.
How I started charging premium rates
I spent more than a decade in the nonprofit sector. Talk about a "there's no money" mindset.
But I was also working in major gift fundraising and grant writing, where you ask for very big gifts. So I had some practice.
When I moved into online business, I had to deal with ALL the mindset gobbledygook. I'd never worked in digital marketing. I'd never called myself a copywriter. How could I charge what other copywriters were charging?
I had to remind myself, over and over, that a decade of writing COUNTED. I wasn't called a copywriter or a messaging strategist, but that's what I'd been doing. Plus, I brought a ton of life experience. When you understand how humans think and live, you make fewer mistakes and land the plane faster.
And still, I started small:
$500 for my first sales page
Then $1,000
Then $1,500
Then $2,000
And so on, until people said, "Whoa, that's a lot."
I also niched down right out of the gate. I specialized in copy for high-ticket sales, for clients who were charging premium rates themselves. That meant they got a bigger ROI from my copy, and I could command higher rates. Owning that niche really worked in my favor.
Sara did something similar. Every time someone said yes, she added $300. (She had to keep a spreadsheet to track it.)
My advice: it's easier to go up than to go down. Especially with a public group offer. Start at a good value and push it as you go.
And with one-on-one work? Nobody needs a blow-by-blow of how your prices changed. They just need to know what you're charging TODAY.
The charging enables the giving
When someone really balks at the price, I keep a few strategies in my back pocket:
A longer payment plan (four or five payments instead of three)
Scholarships for people from marginalized communities or facing financial hardship
And here's the thing. I can only offer scholarships because I charge premium rates.
Sara said it best: you charge the money to enable the giving. Not the other way around.
You can be very explicit about it on your services page ("when you work with me, a third of my proceeds go back to the community"). Or you can do it quietly. Nobody has to know.
And you can change it whenever you want.
You're the boss of your own business
You get to decide what you call your offer. Whether it's open for two weeks or two days. What you charge today.
So many of us feel like everything has to be locked in cement before we move. But business is a series of tests and experiments and learning from data.
You can't know for sure and THEN act. You act, and then you'll know.
Look at what's possible (and keep a cheat sheet of awesomeness)
When I started peeking at what other copywriters charged, I thought, "Heck, if I made half that, I'd be killing it." Meanwhile, I was making about $25 an hour doing the same level of writing and strategy.
Sara pointed out that some people see that same data and feel inferior. Others see what's possible. Very different places.
What helped me get to "what's possible":
Mindset support. I worked with mindset coaches and joined communities with people a few steps ahead of me who'd call me out when I was playing small.
A pump-up song before sales calls. (Don't knock it.)
A cheat sheet of awesomeness. I learned this from Joanna Wiebe of Copyhackers. For a long time, I kept a list of my clients' wins on my bulletin board and read it before EVERY sales call. It reminded me that I'm actually good at what I do.
Sara does a real-time version. Before calls, she writes down her clients' names and one thing they've accomplished together. "Oh wait, we do important stuff."
And those results matter on the call too. In this "trust recession," being able to say "I helped so-and-so do this" makes dropping your price point SO much easier.
Stop giving away the free upgrade
This is an ongoing battle. Even for me.
A past client recently wanted to hire me for a series of nurture emails. Then she asked if I could turn them into LinkedIn posts too.
I wanted to say, "Sure, no problem!" It took me five or 10 minutes to talk myself out of throwing it in for free and to price it properly instead.
Spoiler alert: she didn't buy the upgrade. But I'm still delivering the emails for the same price instead of delivering more and getting paid less.
Sara admitted she does it too. A colleague recently told her, "That's too much and too nice. Make it stop."
Premium clients are easier clients
You've probably seen the meme. Pitch a $5K project to a premium client: "Great, send me the invoice." Sell a $500 service to a $500 client: "Can you tell me the terms? What exactly are my deliverables?"
It's a meme for a reason. Premium pricing brings a different level of clientele, and a different level of confidence on both sides.
And premium doesn't have to mean thousands of dollars. Sara works with a lot of people in the kids-and-families space, where going from $65 to $75 can change your people entirely.
"Dull average" is all I ever want you to be
Sara asked if I have the same money gremlins she does. Oh, of course.
My mom was a teacher. She saw what happened to the exceptional kids and the kids who struggled. So she'd tell me, "I just want you to be average. Dull average is all I ever want you to be."
She meant it from a good place. But any time I was above dull average, I'd think, "I don't deserve this."
That stuff creeps into pricing. "Don't get too big for your britches." "You've got to work hard for your money."
It's about catching yourself. It's okay to be better than dull average.
Sara's journal mantra: I am a success right now. No "except when." No "but I haven't gotten there yet."
And the data backs her up. Something like 50% of businesses close after the first year. Only about 12% of women-owned businesses ever reach $100,000. Only about 2% reach a million. Starting a business is a success. Lasting a year is a success. Lasting five is a TREMENDOUS success.
Pick a niche and talk to your 210s
If I could get everyone to make one shift, it would be picking a niche. That could be the type of service you offer, the type of person you work with, or both.
A niche lets you become THE expert. It helps you stop saying yes to everything. And it teaches you how to speak to your ideal audience in their own words.
My second wish? Speak to the ready-to-buy buyer.
I have a client in the middle of a launch who keeps telling me people are skeptical and the economy is this and the economy is that. And I keep reminding her: those aren't the people we're talking to.
We talk to the people who say, "I know I kind of want this. I'm just a little hesitant."
Sara has a friend who calls them your 210-degree people. Water boils at 212 Fahrenheit. Your 210s don't need much extra heat to boil. Your 83s? Let them do what they do.
And don't worry about leaving your beginners behind. When you paint a picture of possibility for your more sophisticated audience, your beginners get inspired by that vision too. They'll warm right up.
As Sara says, picking a place to stand doesn't mean nobody else can hear you.
Get to know Sara Torpey
Sara is a teacher-turned-business coach who helps healers, teachers and service providers build sustainable, profitable businesses without the hustle. She shares her busy household with two teen-ish kids (as she puts it) and a very large dog, and she's building a business that fits her life. Not the other way around.
Listen to her podcast, Uncomplicating Business for Teachers, Helpers, and Givers: torpeycoaching.com/podcast
Website: torpeycoaching.com
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/saratorpey
Go follow her. And if you've got a takeaway from this one, I'd love to hear it.
Ready to raise YOUR rates?
If you're done pricing for the bare minimum and want messaging that sells to your ready-to-buy buyers, let's talk.
Kim
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[00:25] Kim: Hello, and welcome back to the podcast. Today I'm switching things up a little bit. Earlier in the year, one of my business friends, Sara Torpey, had me on her Uncomplicating Business podcast to talk about high-ticket sales.
[00:39] Kim: We had a fabulous conversation, and I want to emphasize the word conversation, because we really went back and forth to talk about sales, selling, marketing, and the mindset goop that comes up when we're raising our rates and selling our services.
[00:54] Kim: Sara is a teacher-turned-business coach who helps healers, teachers and service providers build sustainable, profitable businesses without the hustle. She has a wonderful way of making the complex very, very simple. She also shares her busy household with two teen-ish kids, as she puts it, a very large dog, and she's building a business that fits into her busy life, and not the other way around.
[01:21] Kim: I really wanted to share our conversation with you because there are so many great tips and strategies that will help you raise your rates and work with high-ticket clients. There are a lot of writer-downers in here. So make sure you have a notepad and pen handy, or get ready to open your notes app, because I know you're going to get at least one great takeaway you can immediately implement. Without further ado, here's the conversation between me and Sara from her podcast, Uncomplicating Business.
[01:52] [Sound swoop]
[01:53] Sara: Welcome, welcome, welcome to Uncomplicating Business. I am delighted. I'm always delighted to bring on people I love. I say that every time, but I literally mean it every time. This is a conversation that we are going to have about sales, because you know that this year we're talking about grounding, connecting, planning and selling, month by month by month. We are going to talk today to my friend Kim. Kim Kiel is all things messaging and sales and brand and voice and strategy, and she's so friggin' smart. And I know she's here watching me say that, but really though. One of the reasons I wanted to bring her to you is because one of the things she's really smart about in particular is selling more things at higher price points, and helping you shift from a million little things to a core bigger thing. That really matters, and that's a hard shift for service providers, who often want to help everybody with everything. She'll tell us more about this, but I want you to hear her, and I want this to be a part of the conversation we're having. So, my friend Kim. Hi. How are you?
[03:16] Kim: I'm awesome. Thank you, Sara.
[03:19] Sara: I'm glad to have you. So talk to me first about, when we say sales, what is sales to you?
[03:29] Kim: Sales, to me, is an exchange of value and an exchange of service. So I really see sales as an act of service and an act of love, because you're filling a need, you're filling a purpose, you're providing a solution to a problem or a situation that someone has. So I really view sales as... yeah, sales is an act of service.
[03:53] Sara: Yes, yes. Well, and sales is an act of service. And I think the point you're making there that I want to sort of poke at a little bit is, even before an exchange. Right? Sales is the thing that happens before the actual sale and exchange is made. So it's pre-exchange. And that's where I think people get tripped up, that it's service before a service. Can you talk a little about that?
[04:24] Kim: Yeah, you're right. You're right about that. I think a lot of the reason why I like to say that sales is an act of service is because for so many people, and a lot of women especially, we think sales is sleazy. We think sales is greedy. And so that shift of positioning, to think of sales as an act of service, somehow makes it easier to engage in the steps to get the sale. It releases the pressure of, "Oh, I have to sell, I have to market myself, I have to build connection, build relationships." But that's all in the purpose of being in service and providing someone with a solution to a problem that they have.
[05:06] Sara: Well, and the more often you build those things, the connection, the relationships, the things that you're talking about, the visibility, the more service you get to be.
[05:20] Kim: And I know a lot of people, and a lot of us, feel like, well, we can't charge that, or we can't charge that much, or, especially if you have that gift, you should be providing it for free. So a way to release some of that pressure, again, is to think, okay, I am delivering a level of my service for free in my marketing, in my messaging and in my pre-sale activities. But I'm really going to save the big transformation for those who have an ability to pay and work with me. Your podcast can be a great avenue to provide free or affordable transformation for those people who maybe can't afford to work with you or don't wish to invest. But I know there are just so many little mindset things that come up for people who are traditional healers or creatives, who feel kind of weird about, "Well, I can't charge for this gift of mine. I have to make it available to everyone." So in some of that marketing, in our podcasts and our content, we can provide those deliverables for free and still feel okay about charging the right price to work with us directly.
[06:47] Sara: Well, and I think it really matters, right? I always say to people, I think that we assume if we're helping it can't be paid, and if we're selling we can't be helping. Like there's somehow no overlap.
[07:05] Kim: Mutually exclusive.
[07:06] Sara: Right, they're weirdly mutually exclusive, and they're not. You can be helping and make money. I come from teaching, and teachers are basically told this should be free, because that's kind of how it works. And that doesn't make it okay. But also, everyone is happier, including you, when the exchange that you talked about earlier, the exchange of value, is balanced. Why shouldn't everybody get to be happy? How come one side only gets to be happy, and it's not me?
[07:43] Kim: We all have to make a living. We all have bills to pay. We all have kids who have astronomical sports fees or theater camp fees. There is no shame in being able to charge a decent amount in exchange for something you deliver, so you can pay the bills, put food on your table, give back to your community, make donations to the causes that you love. I'm a high-ticket messaging strategist. I want to encourage more women to charge more for their valued expertise and services. So I'm always going to remind people that part of the reason why we charge a value for our services is so that we can give back, because we do. Women naturally give back to their communities when they have more agency to do so.
[08:34] Sara: Yes. Well, and I feel like everybody should rewind a whole minute right there and just listen to that again. Because seriously, that's a huge deal. I end up working with a lot of people who kind of calculate to the bare essentials. They're like, "Well, if I charge this, it's the least possible I can charge and meet all my needs." Guys, we're not trying to lay on the floor. We don't need to be on the floor. There's a floor in every business, where it's like, this is the bare minimum you need to get to. But why are we shooting at the bare minimum? And what Kim is talking about, what you are talking about, is how okay it is, and more than okay, to reach above the minimum.
[09:29] Kim: 100%. And if you're going for bargain basement pricing, the bare minimum, that may actually be shooting yourself in the foot. Because there are a lot of people who are looking to work with an expert in the field of your expertise. If they see that you are charging the lowest rate on the block, they're going to think you can't deliver the solution that they need. So there is a real beauty in finding the right price point, so that people see you're at a price point that maybe isn't the lowest, but that's because you must be able to deliver a transformation. You must be one of the best coaches that I can work with. So if you're aiming for the lowest common denominator, you're actually going to be sacrificing the sales with the ideal clientele who want to work with you.
[10:26] Sara: Yes. And in thinking about that, I actually had a client the other day, I got on with her and she was like, "Yeah, I think I underpriced something and they've gone away. I think it scared them in the wrong way."
[10:46] Kim: Yeah, exactly.
[10:47] Sara: Which was really interesting, and she was so taken aback by that. And everybody does it at some point, right? You did it. I've done it. And it happens in real time, where you say your price to somebody and somebody goes, "Oh, I thought it would be more." And you're like, "Oh god, that's the worst." So talk to me about, in your own business, in sales, the shift from that bargain basement, which we've all visited, to this higher ticket, higher value, higher expertise kind of offer. I want to talk about two pieces: the journey for yourself, and the things that have gotten in the way.
[11:47] Kim: Sure. Yeah. All of them. So I actually started out in the nonprofit sector. I worked in charities for more than a decade. So there's the "there's no money" mindset, deliver for as low a cost as possible. So I come from that mindset. But I was also working in major gift fundraising and grant writing, where you are actually asking for very big gifts. So you kind of have to get over that. Also, when you work in nonprofit, you realize you need good people to do the job, and we can't keep paying them minimum wage to do that.
[14:28] Sara: That's a whole different way, yes.
[14:30] Kim: It is, it is. You have to sort of take the leap before you think you're ready, and show yourself that you can, in fact, charge that amount and people will be happy to pay it. Now, there are also some other strategies that go along with all of that mindset work and pricing strategy. That's where understanding how to message and write copy that actually connects, what to say on a sales call, and how to show up as an expert and authority all comes into play. But that's sort of my journey into how I began charging premium rates. And I have to say, the timeline was very short for me to come into the copywriting world and say, "I'm actually going to specialize in writing copy for high-ticket sales." I did that right out of the gate. So I knew I was going to be able to command higher rates from people who would have a greater ROI from the copy, because they in turn were charging premium rates. So it was this really sweet niche that I created, and owning that niche really worked in my favor.
[15:42] Sara: Well, but it's also, what I think you're talking about there is picking a spot that felt really good, where there's income to be made, A. But also the willingness to be like, okay, I charged this and people were like, all right, so I'm going to charge more. I actually connected one-on-one with somebody new on Friday who is newish in the wellness space. And she said, "In your first year in business, what were your prices?" And I was like, honestly, I had to keep a spreadsheet, because they changed every time I asked somebody. And she was like, "What does that mean?" And I was like, well, every time somebody said yes, I added $300. It went from like $1,500 to... it changed all the time, constantly. Is it three months? Is it four months? Is it six months? It went all over the place. And she was like, "Well, is that even okay?" And I was like, well, yeah.
[16:43] Kim: Yeah. It's easier to go up than it is to go down, especially if you're selling a group offer that is out there in the public. So if you start charging, like, $5,000 for a group program, and maybe one or two people buy, or maybe nobody buys, and then you start selling that same offer for less because you think it's the price point, that is harder to do optically. So you're better off to charge a good value and then push it as you go up.
[17:17] Sara: Well, and here's the thing. Especially if you're doing one-on-one work, where Kim's doing a page for this person and a page for this person, or I'm coaching this person and this person, nobody knows that's what's happening. You don't need to give them a blow-by-blow of how you changed your prices. They just need to know what you're charging today. And people will be like, "Well, is that fair?" Well, every person needs something different. It's the same as when my kids are like, "Is that fair that she got it this way and I didn't?" I'm like, "Well, are you the same?"
[17:53] Kim: Yeah. Well, and also, with each client we work with, each person we coach, each sales page I write, I get better and better and better. And so that should come with a commensurate increase in value and price.
[18:09] Sara: And at no point have you said that anyone stood up and was like, "You are a terrible person."
[18:15] Kim: Never.
[18:16] Sara: Has it ever happened?
[18:19] Kim: No. And when people are really balking at the price, I keep in my back pocket a few strategies. One of the strategies is, would a longer payment plan be helpful to you? So I can say, instead of three payments, we can spread it out over four or five. And because I charge premium rates, I have the ability to offer scholarships for marginalized communities, people who have financial hardship, and I'm happy and able to extend that. [inaudible, about 18:55]
[19:03] Sara: ...kinds of clients. And I always want to be able to have a couple of people I'm charging half, or giving away for free. And I would say to them, I'm entirely down with that, I do the same, and that can't come before the charging. You charge the money to enable the giving.
[19:25] Kim: Exactly.
[19:26] Sara: Rather than give and then figure out how to charge the money. The charging enables the giving. It's like when you write a grant, you enable someone to give. There's work that comes before that. And so it's an interesting pot-kettle kind of thing, right? That actually isn't a pot and a kettle. It's like a pot and a cup.
[19:49] Kim: Yeah. And I mean, we're used to this in other contexts. When we go to the grocery store, it's like, "Do you want to add on the rest of the change so that we can make a donation to this charity?" A lot of corporate businesses will say, "If you want to, buy a seat for somebody else." So you can make it very explicit when you're doing your pricing, or have it on your services page: "When you work with me, you allow me to donate a third of my proceeds back to the community." You could be very explicit about it, or you can just do it on your own. Nobody has to know, or they can know if you want them to. And that can change.
[20:36] Sara: God forbid! That might be one way today, and a year from now you might change it again. I think the other thing that happens is people say, "Well, I'm charging this right now, and I did just change it." Oh, okay.
[20:52] Kim: Yeah. You're the boss of your own business. You get to decide what you call it. You get to decide if you change the name of it. You get to decide if you want to make it a two-week offer or a two-day offer. You get to decide what you're charging today. I think a lot of us feel like we have to have everything locked in cement and then move from there. But the truth is, business life is about a series of tests and experiments and learning from data. You can't know unequivocally and then act. You act, and then you'll know.
[21:29] Sara: So all of last year on this podcast, it was about trust. I always think about trust as the thing we do before data. Trust is pre-data. And that's the thing. People will be like, "Well, what's the right price?" The thing that always cracks me up with people, they'll be like, "Well, nobody near me is charging more than that." Well, that you know of.
[21:54] Kim: Yeah, how do you know what people are charging?
[21:58] Sara: How do you know? And I will tell you, 100% guarantee, the range is bigger than you realize. Do you have any experiences where all of a sudden your thoughts about what people would pay sort of changed, where you were like, "Oh. Oh."
[22:21] Kim: Well, I think it was really when I was getting into online business. I was following a big influencer who's very famous for her online business program, and I was really intrigued by it. Once you get into the funnels, you get to see all the people who are doing the affiliate marketing. And a couple of them were, quote unquote, copywriters. When I did a deeper dive into their websites and I saw how much they were charging, I was like, heck, if I made half that, I'd be killing it. And so seeing those people ahead of me gave me the trust that there are people willing to pay for this. And here I was making like $25 an hour, doing that same level of writing, providing that same level of strategy. But now I could probably be making triple or quadruple that if I just changed who I was writing for.
[23:23] Sara: And what's interesting about that is, I think there are people who go out into the world and look at that same set of data and come back from it feeling inferior rather than empowered. Which is an interesting option, right? You go out and you're like, "Oh my gosh, those people are charging so much more than I feel good about. I'm never going to be like them." Or it's, "Look what's possible." And I think they lead to very different places.
[23:58] Kim: They absolutely do, yes.
[23:59] Sara: So when people come to you and say, "I want to charge more, but..." what are your thoughts on what tends to be most in the way, and what's your general response?
[24:19] Kim: I mean, I had to really invest in a lot of support, mindset support. So I did work with mindset coaches. I joined communities where there were people who were maybe a little bit further ahead of me, so they could really call me out when I was playing too small, or when I was believing a false narrative about myself or what I could charge. Having other people reflect back to you, "I think you're playing small here. What are you talking about? You have 12, 15 years of working in nonprofit. You can actually do this. Just because you didn't call it the same thing doesn't mean you can't do the same thing." So I think having that person... So when I'm working with someone and I see them holding themselves back, I can hold up that mirror and say, "I think you're being a little bit hard on yourself. Look at all these amazing things you've done. Look at so-and-so. This is possible for so-and-so." There are also some actual mindset programs you can take to help rewire your mindset, or whatever practice gets you into the vibe. Sometimes it's just listening to that pump-up song before you hop on a sales call, so you feel like an expert and you can command those rates. So there are just a few little tricks.
[25:52] Sara: Well, in the lab that I run, one of the core structures is grounding. Because for me, at least in the experience of business I have, and it sounds like you're not far from it, that is the thing that drives everything else. If you start from that grounded place... It's not a location we get to stay at. We wander away from that spot quite a bit. It's like the little kid, you're constantly refocusing: "Oh, hey, look at this, look at this, look at this." It's a toddler at best, a rambunctious one. And it's that constant coming back to, "Wait a minute, I know what I'm doing." Be it through your journal or meditation or music or friends, whatever you need to come back to you. I have a note that sits right up there on my wall that says, "It doesn't have to be perfect to be useful." Because I need to be reminded on a fairly regular basis that it doesn't have to be perfect to be useful. So it's that constant re-centering before you go out into the world and say, "Hey world, I have this thing." And when you're like, "Do I have anything?" you come back and go, "Wait, wait, wait. I do. I know how to do this."
[27:20] Kim: One of the things I... sorry to cut you off.
[27:23] Sara: Keep going. No, you're fine. It was a question, go ahead.
[27:26] Kim: One of the things I did in the early days, I learned this from Joanna Wiebe of Copyhackers. She created something called the cheat sheet of awesomeness, and she recommended that we do that. Do I even still have it up? I don't. But for a long time, on my bulletin board, I had a list of all of these wins my clients had had. And I had to look at that every single time before I hopped on a sales call. Because I wanted to not only be able to refer back to, "Oh, this one time I was working with a client who..." and then provide that result, but it also reminded me that I am actually good at what I do. [inaudible, about 28:07] And then just sit in the silence and let that person respond.
[29:36] Sara: So it's funny, last week I was on a call with a colleague talking about a new offer I'm kind of pushing around very quietly, mushing and thinking about. And I was like, "Oh, and then I can add this onto the end." And she was like, "Have you lost your mind?" And I was like, "Oh, it's a good idea." And she was like, "It is not. That is too much and too nice, and make it stop." And I was like, oh, oh, oh. She was like, "You do that all the time. Cut it out." And I was like, dear God, okay, hold on. Because I do the same thing, where I'm like, "Well, I could just tack on these three more nice things that would be so fun." So I totally get that. And it is a constant battle.
[30:23] Kim: It is.
[30:24] Sara: And you get better at noticing it, right? You see it faster than you ever did before. What's funny is, your awesome list, I actually, early on and still sometimes, do the same, but in real time. I just write down all the names of my people and one thing we've accomplished. It's like, okay, what am I working on with everybody right now? What are the important things we're doing with all these names I can name right here? And then it's like, oh wait, we do important stuff. Okay. Carry on. And I often do that before calls with new people, even still, because it's like, oh, what actually is happening here?
[31:06] Kim: Yeah, it really is a useful practice for you. But it's also impactful when you can, on a sales call or an introduction call, showcase those results. Because in what everyone's calling this trust recession time right now, being able to point to some of your results and say, "I helped so-and-so release this. I helped so-and-so achieve this health goal. I helped so-and-so get so many sales from this series of emails or this sales page." They like to hear that you've had success. And then it makes dropping that price point even easier, because they know you are coming to the table with a level of expertise.
[31:57] Sara: Yes. Well, it is that safety, right? No matter what you're charging. And honestly, that safety is at every price point. At the higher price points, we feel more like it's got to be safe for them, but I often feel like the price point is part of the safety at those higher price points.
[32:16] Kim: It is, yeah.
[32:17] Sara: And it's an interesting counter. It feels a little counterintuitive. If you sit down and draw it on paper, it makes sense, right? Are there things like that for you, where if I write this out, it'll make sense, but in my brain it's like, can that be real? A lot of the money things fit like that.
[32:35] Kim: There's a funny meme that you've probably seen. It's like, charging a $5K project to a client. Client says, "Great, send me the invoice." And then it's selling a $500 service to a $500 client, and it's like, "Can you tell me what the terms are? How much goes into this? What are my deliverables, exactly?" It's a meme for a reason. There is a reason why premium clients and premium pricing give you a different level of clientele. It gives you a different level of command and confidence, on both sides of the coin.
[33:22] Sara: Well, and it's interesting. I work with a lot of people who work with kids and families, and the distance from the people who make you crazy to the people you'll be thrilled to have is not as far as you think, especially in those models. People will be like, "Well, I can't charge 75 versus 65." You can, actually. And it will change your life, because it'll change your people entirely, and you'll be like, "Oh, what's happening?" I've seen it time and time and time again. So Kim is not saying to everyone, you have to triple what you're charging now. Premium means something different for everyone, and it's going to be kind of uncomfortable, and it changes all the things.
[34:23] Kim: Yeah. You could look at premium in terms of the kind of service you provide, the niche service you provide. If you're an expert in a certain area, that's going to bring a level of expertise and possibly condense the timeline for your client to have a transformation. So that could be premium, and you just charge potentially more for that than the going rate. It doesn't have to be that you're charging thousands and thousands of dollars. Absolutely not.
[34:55] Sara: And it's going to be different for everybody. But the thing I've always had to write about in my journal, which I find interesting, especially with rate changes and newer offers, is: what am I worried people are going to say and do and feel, and how are none of those things actually going to happen? Right? Where you're like, "Oh, that's not real." Do you have the same gremlins, Ms. Kim?
[35:28] Kim: Oh, of course. But usually what it comes down to is the things my mom was saying to me when I was a kid. She was a teacher, and she saw what would happen to students who were exceptional, or students who were really at the bottom of the barrel. So she would say, "I just want you to be average. Dull average is all I ever want you to be." And she meant it from a good place. But any time I was above dull average, I was like, "Oh, I don't deserve this. I shouldn't be like this." And I think that kind of comes into pricing. Like, "Don't get too big for your britches." "You've got to work hard for your..." There are all these little things that we say, that we're programmed with, that were very innocent when we were younger. And so it's about catching yourself. It's okay to be better than dull average.
[36:24] Sara: Right. And you already are.
[36:27] Kim: Yes.
[36:29] Sara: Everybody has something at which they are exceptional, and that is the reason you're in business. And to say, "Oh, I am exceptional at this," to even say those words out loud, people are like, "Yeah, right." I often work with clients, and one of the things we come to, and something I write about all the time in my journal, is "I am a success right now." And getting people to be able to say out loud, "I am a success right now," and not have them carry the sentence with "except when" or "but I haven't gotten there yet." No, no, no. I can be successful today and want more. That doesn't negate success today. The amount at which we fight that, and how that impacts how we think about sales and future growth...
[37:31] Kim: I was just thinking about how one of the things I like to do regularly is look at the data on women in business. And I'm not going to get the percentages right right now, but it's like 50% of businesses close after the first year. Only 12% of women-owned businesses make it to six figures, to $100,000. Only 2%, 1.9%, make it to $1 million in revenue. And when you put it in that perspective, even just the act of starting your business, leaving your corporate life, transitioning from your nine-to-five and starting a business or a side hustle, that in itself is a success. Lasting beyond one year is a success. Lasting to five years is a tremendous success. Hitting six figures or beyond, even if that's not your goal, that is successful in and of itself. So I'm just agreeing with you: I'm a success today.
[38:43] Sara: Yes. And actually, those are the numbers that started me thinking about that. Because that particular one, about six figures, what I find really interesting in that data set is they're not talking about in a year. They're talking about total, ever. There's a number that's like, only 12 or whatever percent of businesses ever make $100,000 total. That's crazy. We're not talking about a calendar year. We're talking about all together, cumulative. And then it's like, oh, okay, wait, hold on. Maybe it's not all so bad. Maybe there are some things working here. Because it's like, have you made it over time? And so that, to me, is fascinating. Tell me, if you could have everyone make one shift right now, what would it be?
[39:46] Kim: If everyone could make one shift, I think it would be... I'm really big into niche. Picking a niche. And a niche can be the type of service you offer, or it could be the type of person you work with, or both. But I really feel that when you have picked your niche, you can become an expert in there. You're not saying yes to all of these things that are outside of this niche. It allows you to focus your day-to-day on what you offer and who you want to work with. And it helps clear out all of this extra stuff, where you might be like, "Oh, well, I should offer this, and oh, I should offer this, and oh, I should do that." So I feel like a niche is kind of the foundation of everything. And from your niche, you learn how to speak to your ideal audience. You learn to speak the words that they say.
[40:46] Sara: Oh, God bless.
[40:48] Kim: So I'm working with a client right now on a launch, and she's telling me about how people are so skeptical, and they don't want to buy, and the economy is this and the economy is that. And I have to keep reminding her, those aren't the people we're talking to. We are not going to try to convince the people who are negative and wound up in their story that this is the offer they should do, or why they should change their minds. We're going to talk to the people who are like, "I know I kind of want this, and I'm just maybe a little bit hesitant." So moving from that super beginner, or the person who really doesn't know if they need this yet, to positioning yourself within your niche to the people who are kind of ready to buy, or red hot and ready to buy. That is where you want to position your offer, your messaging, your sales: focusing on the people who are already there.
[41:38] Sara: I have a friend who describes those people as your 210-degree people. Water boils at 212 Fahrenheit, right? So you're talking to your 210s, not your 83s. And those 210s don't need a ton of extra heat to boil. And as a former math teacher, I think all the time about how my job in a classroom was to bring everybody to algebra. My job in business is not. Only the kids who are like, "Please, can I have algebra?" I get to have them. The other kids can go do what they want to do. That's a really good thought. I think a lot about my 210s, or my 209s or my 208s, the people over 200. But the people who are at 73? Let them do what they do. They've got cooking to do.
[42:40] Kim: Yeah. And a lot of us feel, as we grow in our businesses, as we evolve, as we gain more expertise, we worry about the people at the bottom of that spectrum, who were the original audience we were talking to. The people who are just learning what EFT is, learning what copywriting is. We all kind of start there. And then as we gain more experience and the market sophisticates, we want to position ourselves here, but we're worried about all these beginner people. But the thing I want everyone to remember is that when you are painting this picture for this more sophisticated audience, of what the transformation and the outcomes will be, your beginners will still be inspired by that vision. They'll actually be pulled along into that new vision more than if you're like, "Oh, this is what you're struggling with, these are the pains and problems, the economy is blah, blah, blah." If you're painting that picture of possibility for the people, as you call it, in the 200s, the people who are at 87 will naturally find themselves warmed into that.
[43:46] Sara: Well, and I think that, to the point about niche, it's similar. Just because you picked a place to stand doesn't mean no one else will hear you. It's not like you're dead to everyone else. And I think that is what scares people. They're like, "Well, if I open this door and stand firmly in this room, I've closed all the other ones." No, you've picked a space to speak from. That doesn't mean people don't come to me and say, "Can you do this thing in this other area?" Of course I can. Just because you picked a spot doesn't mean you put up a curtain around you and you're dead to everyone else.
[44:28] Sara: Tell people how to find you. And before you do that, I will remind people, as I remind them every single time: Kim is an actual human being. If you were to go to LinkedIn and send her a connection request and say, "Hey, I'd love to talk to you one-on-one," she would not be like, "Oh my God, who do you think you are?" She would be like, "Oh, hi, human. I'm a human." So you could actually do that, and no one would die.
[44:54] Kim: You actually could.
[44:55] Sara: Yeah. I'm just saying. Tell them how to get there.
[44:57] Kim: So I also have a podcast. It's called the Ill Communication Podcast. You'll find it on all the channels, so you can listen to that.
[45:04] Sara: It's really good. It's in the stuff I listen to weekly.
[45:10] Kim: Yeah, thank you. So you can absolutely subscribe and get little tips and tricks to help elevate your messaging, copy and sales in your business. So that's one of the ways. You can also find me on LinkedIn. You can find me at kimkiel.com.
[45:28] Sara: Kim, it's so lovely to see you and talk with you. Thank you so much for this today.
[45:32] Kim: Oh, it's my pleasure. Thank you for having me, Sara.
[45:38] Kim: Hey, wasn't that a great conversation? Even just listening back to it again now, I was reminded of all of the value in that conversation. Please go follow Sara and check out her podcast, Uncomplicating Business. You can find out more about Sara, her offers, and her events, and access her podcast at torpeycoaching.com. That's T-O-R-P-E-Y coaching.com. I will drop all the direct links to her and her socials in the show notes.
[46:08] Kim: Thanks so much for joining me today. Please subscribe, follow, and leave a rating and review, and I'll catch you again next week.
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